Stop trying to copy Barcelona!

Posted by: jw7

Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 08/31/11 02:00 AM

Everybody now wants to play/attack just like Barcelona does.

Three attackers, and pushing both of the fullback way up high into attack on the flanks, combined with using high pressure defending in numbers in their half of the field... Really? And how long have you been training that system to your players? A few weeks, and you expect the same results?

The 433/451 high pressure tactic and the same numbers forward ideas are now used by many teams and were the root of many defending problems (high scoring, lopsided games) this past weekend. smirk

Only one problem: Barcelona has the best attacking players in the world, with some of the highest pass completion rates and they don't make very many poor passes and give up the ball in the middle third. When they do lose the ball they have some of the best 1v1 players in the world and don't get burned often while defending. They also realize the risk they are taking and recover very quickly into their starting position while at the same time delaying the attack with good pressure. They simply do everything right, few other teams can say that!

They played this weekend against Villarreal using only three/(one real) defenders because of injuries and still won 5-0.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/29/barcelona-5-0-villarreal-tactics/

Don't use tactics from the best team in the world unless you also have the best group of players in the world because their tactics just might not work for your players...

Even US Soccer (the new curriculum by Claudio Reyna) is now telling everyone to play in a 433 and use the same tactics as Barcelona.

"Why would you not use the same system as the best team in the world" - A USSF coaching course instructor a few weeks ago...

Because we're not Barcelona (and may never be)! And there are technical implications to using tactics just as you list in your own coaching course manuals...

-Defend first and execute on the attacking chances all teams will get in every 90+ minute game. Keep your team in the game until the end and let them win by not giving up poorly defended goals early in the game.

Remember one thing, Barcelona got beat clearly by Inter Milan in the Champions league semi final in 2010 by doing just that, defending well!

Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 08/31/11 08:32 AM

It is funny that you posted this because I recently watched a HS match where the team was trying to play a 433, and was looking really bad. They later switched to a 442, and found more success.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/03/11 08:11 AM

Yep, that was not good, not good at all Klinsy/US Soccer. I expected a little more, sorry... whistle
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/03/11 08:18 AM

451 defending in numbers that morphs into a 433 while in the attacking 1/3!

A central triangel that shifts roles by the 1/3s, two defending when in the def 1/3 (base low), two attacking when in the att 1/3 (base high), staggered in the mid 1/3 to create the triangle (base sideways).

The other number shift happens out on the wings who play the whole length of the field from box to box (find those players capable of that work rate), give them a rest during the attacks that are not counters by slowing the play down and giving them time to get forward.

Counter attack from a deep start when the play is on. Take your time in transiting forward when the counter is not on, give all the players a chance to rest while under possession of the ball in the middle 1/3 by keeping possession while playing around the back (we only need good quality attacks performed with quality energy levels). Move forward when space is there and the percentage is high to maintain possession. Attack into the att1/3 using combination plays (executed quickly and with precision) to penetrate behind. Find the player at the top of the box in the center of the field and finish on the full width of the goal.

Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/03/11 05:40 PM

I am glad I went to bed early last night and wasted no more than 20 minutes of my life on the USMNT. Altidore remains a lazy bum in my book and should be forever bannished from wearing a jersey representing the US. In fact, I think the lad would have a hard time scoring goals in the NASL.

I will remain patient with the new coach, but my patience is wearing thin...
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/04/11 11:15 PM





Bump
Posted by: Leitbringer

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/05/11 08:15 PM

I would like to see more 451. That way you can control the ball in the midfield and receive support from the defense whilst wait for an opportunity to attack. Also diamond formation in the midfield can give 5 player on defense and 5 on attack, really 3 and two support players.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/06/11 02:47 PM

The #28 ranked FIFA team (USA) 0, the #37 ranked team (Belgium) 1.
I will wait and see as everybody has asked, but I did expect more right out of the gate for the US.

What is important is what happens next June in the World Cup Q matches. I really hope they do better than our MNT U20s did...
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/10/11 12:50 PM

Barcelona up by 2 at the half against the #15 place La Liga team from last year, gives up two quick goals against Real Sociedad and the game ended 2-2.


"Safe to say nobody expected that result. A great result for Real Sociedad, for Real Madrid, for neutrals as well. But not for Barcelona, who should have had this wrapped up by half-time. Questions will be asked of the defence following this display" -Ben Hayward Goal.com

See what happens when the second best group of players in the world tries to do what the best group can do every game: Not make any technical or tactical mistakes all game long...

Messi, Iniesta, and Mascherano were all on the bench while this happened.

Maybe all attack and numbers down/even in the back is not the way to go after all for good but not great teams. whistle

"Crazy. We're in round two of La Liga but with Barca and Real Madrid so superior, a result like this could have serious consequences on Barca's title hopes. I know, I know - it's ridiculous. Round two"! -Ben hayward
Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/10/11 01:54 PM

I watched another HS team trying to play 433 recently. It seems to me that 433 is the new 442. When watching this team, it was clear to me that the coach, and more importantly the players (outside wingers) failed to understand what their role was when the team was attacking and what to do after the team lost the ball.

I was also frustrated by the play of the outside backs. There were opportunities for them to become involved in the play that even my half-blind 93 year-old grandmother could have seen.

In sum, I want to learn more about systems of play in 11 v. 11 soccer. However, it is hard for me to get a chance to see some teams (and coaches) who understand the 443 to play it live. (I hate watching soccer on team because I cannot see the whole field.)
Posted by: Leitbringer

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/10/11 03:43 PM

I fully believe in the 3-5-2. Its better than having an attacking back, which fully believe in. I.E. Inter Milan in the Champions league in 2010.

Having the 5 mids in diamond formation gives the ultimate ability too attack with 5 and defend with 5.

It might actually look like a 3-1-3-1-2. Having an attacking mid and a defensive mid gives you an amazing ability to control the field.

For instance SSC Napoli, watch them this year control the field.

My theory is control the midfield and you will control the game.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/11/11 12:27 AM

The five mids play in a central triangle with two wingers in a 352. The triangel rotates depending on what third they are in and who has the ball.

The base of the triangle (6,8,10) is back when you are without the ball in your own def 1/3, 451.

.......2..........4...........5...........3.......
.......7..........6...........8.........11.......
.
..........B.........10..............................
.
..................9...................................

The base becomes sideways (6,8,10) and is staggered on the strong side when you regain possession and are playing with build up moving through the mid 1/3, 41311

.................4.............5.................
.....2................................3...........
..................6.................................
7............................8.................11
................B10..............................
.....................................9.............

When you get the ball into the att 1/3 the triangle (6,8,10) rotates forward and you now have a 433.
..............4..............5.................
....................6...............3..........
.2...............................................
............10...........8....................
....................................11........
..7B..................9......................
Posted by: Leitbringer

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/11/11 10:35 AM

Now that everything has been dissected, I think we can all agree. That we do not want to be Barcelona.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/11/11 11:12 AM

Don't misunderstand me I think they are a great team. I just don't think we can afford to be Barcelona and I think people are making a mistake trying to copy a system that is based on having the best players in the world, ones that don't make mistakes.

There is a difference between being a idealist and a realist as a coach. I want my payers to take risk, I also want a system that has safety built in so when they do try something risky we have redundant systems in place so that the risk taking does not then cost us the game, the season, and all of our hopes.

A coach is there to organize a team into a system and make them stronger than they really are 1v1. You want to make your players look good and build confidence by having a system that has a lot of cover build in, and good defensive starting positions. You want a system that allows them to play strong for the full 90 minutes. Not a system that highlights their mistakes in the open field all alone 40 yards from goal in the 80 minute. That erodes team confidence and creates players who resort to blame to escape the pressures of a long hard season.

One mistake in one 5 second moment of a 90 minute game should not be that important. The system should not allow one mistake to end your hopes.

Coaches need to be a little more realistic about who they are coaching, and who they are watching on TV. whistle
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/11/11 11:54 AM

I really don't mind losing a game against a team that has great attacking skills.

If they are able to come down and get through a tightly spaced defending unit of 8-9 players and then can combine perfectly to score, or if they can play a great ball in from the wing right to the target player who scores first time out of the air, then they are a great team. The fans will see great play, they will see the beautiful game played at its highest level.

It's when your fans have to witness poorly given up goals cause by mistakes that could have been prevented by simple cover and reduced defending space tactics that sometime makes you question wether you are watching something beautiful, or something just plain sloppy.

If your team is giving up sloppy goals which start far away from your own goal, then the system is not working. As a coach you have to make adjustments, that's why you're there, to identify the problems and find solutions quickly with the resources you currently have in a realistic way which makes your players more confident. Confident players are happy players. Happy players work hard believe in what they are doing and win games.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/11/11 12:30 PM

“It’s hard to explain, but two mistakes by us cost us the match. It was a good wake up call. We have to be more careful.”

“Football has been tough to us today, because they equalised with the only two chances they had.”

“We’re not panicking, but we know that to repeat our successes we have to repeat what we did before, and that’s not easy.” - Dani Alves



“They got two goals to tie the game. Was it to our discredit or their credit? A bit of both, That’s part of the game.”

“It shows nothing is easy. You have to concentrate for 90 minutes because it’s no good to dominate the whole first half but not the second.” -Víctor Valdés



“Two isolated errors cost us dearly” - Xavi


The midfielder admitted that his team had made silly mistakes in the second half of the game with Real Sociedad that cost them two points. He felt they had the game under their control until the two shock Real goals stunned them.

http://www.fcbarcelona.cat/web/english/n...ontent=Football

Don't give them things to wonder about after the game, use a system that covers for little mistakes, and make sure your players appear strong the whole season long, build their confidence don't erode it by taking too much risk.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/11/11 12:37 PM

The mistakes in Saturday's game were the main subject in Busquets’ press conference at the Joan Gamper training ground. "As it happened, last year we also began with problems, losing to Hercules, but it’s no good worrying about it. We have to take note of it, correct the mistakes...

"We must learn from our mistakes" - Busquets



...it was not because Barça had thrown it away but “because they did things well. Of course, we got things wrong...

“If we draw or lose there is a reason. Football is very competitive, very demanding. We have to take things as they come, knowing that it’s all very hard. We have to make a huge effort.” Asked about this unusual choice of starting eleven, Guardiola said “we all have to make it to the end of the year, and all the players have made an effort”. - Guardiola


http://www.fcbarcelona.cat/web/english/n...ontent=Football



According to Busquets, team morale "is not the best today...


Does that sound like the world's most confident team after just their second game of the season?

Now think what the US MNT team is thinking now that they are 0 wins, 2 loses, and 1 draw after three games with a new coach... ??

Is "attacking soccer" really served up best using a 433?
Is "attacking soccer" really all that it is supposed to be for the fans and the players?

Defend to win games and make your fans, players and coaches happy by being well organized and by playing as a team of 11 players.

Especially if your not great at scoring goals in bunches at will and don't have the world's best group of the highest paid players. Because more than ever you need to be able to protect the lead once you gain it through hard work. Every game will have plenty of opportunity to score goals. You only need one or two to win the game because if you can defend well (even when you make a few mistakes) then the 90 minute game of defending and attacking will be remembered as being played beautifully. You will build confidence and the players will be allowed to take risk and make a few mistakes without being held out to dry by the press after the disappointing 2-2 attacking oriented game.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/13/11 09:58 AM

WCC Blog: Transitioning to a 433 system

http://www.worldclasscoaching.com/blog/?p=1138

Book by Local St Croix Valley Assistant DOC Tony Englund

https://www.worldclasscoaching.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=326&idcategory=15

"The 4-3-3 formation has enjoyed a surge in popularity in recent years at the top levels of the game, with the Netherlands, Chelsea, Inter Milan and the National Champion University of Notre Dame women all employing the system to great success, and many other top teams utilizing subtle variations of a base 4-3-3".

Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/13/11 10:02 AM

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/m...ource=main_feed

Milito scored twice at the Stadio Barbera, but his side were beaten by a motivated Rosanero in Sicily.

"It's not right to think of the Inter of two years ago,” the Argentine international striker, who was part of that treble-winning side, told RAI.

“Today we are a different team, with a new Coach who has other tactics in mind compared to those of the past and we have to be able to adapt to it.


They have already changed their 433 system...

Inter Milan 3 Palermo 4

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/09/12/palermo-4-3-inter-gasperini-3-4-3-tactics/

You might ask yourself when was the last time a top Italian team let in 4 goals...

http://www.chron.com/sports/article/Inter-in-crisis-mode-for-Champions-League-opener-2167963.php

The 2010 champions lost their Serie A opener at Palermo 4-3 Sunday, allowing four goals for the first time in a league match in more than seven years.


Back in Italy, Gasperini was also criticized for keeping Wesley Sneijder on the bench at the start against Palermo, then sending the standout playmaker on for newly signed forward Mauro Zarate after only 34 minutes.

So in addition to a likely change in defense, Gasperini appears unsure who he wants to use in attack.

"I think he's the first one to realize, without pushing him, that he needs to find some remedies," Moratti said.


http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/clubfootball/news/newsid=1509865.html?cid=rssfeed&att=

Gasperini, however, refused to accept that his back three was the main problem against Palermo. "The worst thing was that we were too vulnerable to counter-attacks," he said. "We have to work on our lack of balance.

Inter president Massimo Moratti, however, suggested he believes a change could be in order. "We all took it badly, starting I believe with the coach," he said about the Palermo defeat. And so I think he will be the first, without need of encouragement, to look for the necessary remedies, if only to put the team in a position to regain its confidence. He will be the one to decide if it's time to change [the system], but I think it is."

"It's a false start but not an affair of the state. Now we're thinking about the Champions League and about not having another false start. It's pointless to get worked up talking about a defensive system of three or four defenders, you defend with ten people in a team.- Esteban Cambiasso


http://www.serieaweekly.com/2011/09/the-inter-view-formation-three-no-three-gasperini.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SerieAWeekly+%28Serie+A+Weekly%29

Gasperini’s men looked disjointed and in disarray, with no flow between the team. There was a disconnect between the midfield and attack, as one could count on a single hand how many touches Milito had in the opening half an hour.

Inter used to be able to hold a 1-0 lead and grind out the result needed, but through tactical mistakes and managers trying to “beautify” the squad’s play over the last twelve months, it seems as if that ability has all but vanished.

It looks likely that the fallout from the match against Palermo will be a change in formation to potentially 4-3-3 for the Champions League game against Turkish side Trazbonspor on Wednesday.

"Say What"? It the love roller coaster all over again until they finally figure out three forwards always up and ahead of the ball while defending just doesn't work in todays game.

Adapt quickly or die trying!

Champions League...

Posted by: Leitbringer

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/13/11 04:59 PM

I did not understand why he put Sneijder as a forward... He played a couple players out of position. Also I am a Napoli fan so seeing this happen cracks a smile on my face.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/14/11 09:42 AM

Barcelona vs AC Milan 2-2
2 Barca mistakes = 2 more goals

The Italians were realists about how the play would go and set up their system to be able to work within that reality. a 442 and later a 451 with two compact lines of defense and played the possession driven defending Champions League champions to a 2-2 draw away in Barcelona. *Barcelona has key defending players missing and has shown just how venerable their system is with out the perfect mix of players and skills (which they have paid gazillions to acquire). This is a team of great players, not a team using a great playing system.

The Italians showed the correct use of tactics against Barcelona a great attacking team that will beat you on possession time in the attacking zone and attacking chances at goal no mater what you do. And this shows why having a good defending plan and being skilled at that part of the game is just as important as building a great attacking game.

Some times you will play a team that is better then you and then you have to be able to work under those realities of soccer life. The system used should be able to do both depending on where the ball is on the field. 451 into a 433 in attack, not a real 433 IMO...

Study the team you will play and if they are a very good team that is hard to beat at home then play in a way to keep your team in the game by not going down by more than one is priority #1.

What was the score against that English team last year in the end of May, and at what point in time was that game actually over?

The Italians have always understood why defending is a very important part of the game and how to set it up and execute that game plan with few mistakes which lead directly to goals. That tactical flexibility experience showed up again against the world's best team, a team that did not win at home in their first game as defending champions of that league.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/18/11 09:40 PM

lol... laugh

Chelsea's new 433 = 3-1 loss.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/09/18/ten-points-on-manchester-united-3-1-chelsea/

Villas-Boas has changed that system, and now roles have changed, even within the same starting formation.

When a 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 meets a 4-3-3, often the main advantage for the former is the fact that the wingers are often immediately against the opposition full-back – the wide forward in the 4-3-3 usually watches the opposition full-back rather than covers his own. Twice in a row at Old Trafford, United’s right-winger has dominated Ashley Cole.

Despite a couple of errors...
They competed well here, and were unfortunate to be 3-0 down at half-time.
...it broadly worked well.

...there was an amazing lack of pressure upon the player in possession in midfield

This seems to be an early trend this season around Europe – in Serie A games it has been particularly obvious that sides aren’t closing down until the opposition get into the final third of the pitch. Considering Barcelona are currently the best side around and base their game without the ball around pressing, it’s a strange development.
...........................................................................................................................

Question from the first paragraph of this thread-
And how long have you been training that system to your players? A few weeks, and you expect the same results?

3-0 after 45... whistle

Where are all the goals? That is what it's all about in this great new "attacking" system?
Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/22/11 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: jw7
lol... laugh

Chelsea's new 433 = 3-1 loss.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/09/18/ten-points-on-manchester-united-3-1-chelsea/

Villas-Boas has changed that system, and now roles have changed, even within the same starting formation.

When a 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 meets a 4-3-3, often the main advantage for the former is the fact that the wingers are often immediately against the opposition full-back – the wide forward in the 4-3-3 usually watches the opposition full-back rather than covers his own. Twice in a row at Old Trafford, United’s right-winger has dominated Ashley Cole.

Despite a couple of errors...
They competed well here, and were unfortunate to be 3-0 down at half-time.
...it broadly worked well.

...there was an amazing lack of pressure upon the player in possession in midfield

This seems to be an early trend this season around Europe – in Serie A games it has been particularly obvious that sides aren’t closing down until the opposition get into the final third of the pitch. Considering Barcelona are currently the best side around and base their game without the ball around pressing, it’s a strange development.
...........................................................................................................................

Question from the first paragraph of this thread-
And how long have you been training that system to your players? A few weeks, and you expect the same results?

3-0 after 45... whistle

Where are all the goals? That is what it's all about in this great new "attacking" system?


Torres is a lazy Spaniard!
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/08/11 10:20 AM

Manchester United are out of the Champions League after a 2-1 defeat away in Switzerland.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/12/08/basel-2-1-manchester-united-united-into-the-europa-league/

Vogel’s tactics unquestionably worked well – Basel completed excellently with a side significantly superior on paper. They defended deep to prevent United getting space, knowing they had little ability to get around a packed defence, and attacked intelligently – bringing the wide players inside.

It seems likely that Vogel watched the tape of Manchester City’s 1-6 win over United – in that game, David Silva and James Milner caused problems by moving into the centre and switching flanks, movement replicated by Shaqiri and Fabian Frei here. They moved inside to combine and help Basel keep the ball, and a couple of times looked to overload United on either side with diagonal runs from one flank to another. Shaqiri moved from the right all the way over to the left early on, meaning both Basel’s wingers were on the same flank – this produced the early cross that David De Gea flapped at.

Basel were excellent at slowing the tempo and cooling things down by passing calmly in midfield – although they had opportunities to break, they often turned down those opportunities and played keep-ball instead.
...........................................................................................................................

*rest hard working defending players during the transition to attacking phase and then using quality high energy play for combination plays once in the att 1/3 near the goal.

Counter when you catch them attacking too deep with numbers

Controlling the game tempo is the key to a defending game you intend to win.
Run, run, run (regain possession) - Slow, slow slow (move forward in possession) - Run, run, sprint (score)

The Swiss have learned how to not get beat by stronger teams
Tactics combined with controlling the pace of the game

"Basel were able to sit very deep, and United didn’t have the individuals to break them down".

Second Leg Champions League Semi-Final 2010
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/28/barcelona-inter-mourinho-tactics/
"Arrigo Sacchi once demonstrated in a training session how five organised players could hold out against ten disorganised ones – taking his Milan back five of Galli, Tassotti, Costacurta, Baresi and Maldini and pitching them against the club’s best ten attacking players. The 15-minute game finished scoreless, despite the attacking talents of the likes of Gullit, van Basten, Rijkaard, Ancelotti and Donadoni".

First Leg Champions League Semi-Final 2010
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/20/inter-3-1-barcelona-tactics-guardiola-mourinho/


Defend to win against stronger teams is a proven tactic that works, it is a beautiful defending and attacking chess match of player positioning. It requires conservation of energy and a keen understanding of when and where the other team is venerable in their own defending systems. It is the beautiful game at it's best, most organized, and disciplined team play form.

Anybody can put 10 players on the field and tell them to chase anything that moves when they don't have the ball. My dog plays that style...

Most US high school and many US collage teams play in the 94 minute run till you drop/lack of coaching tactics style of play.

We don't need a "US Attacking Mentality" (433)
We need a US Winning Games Mentality!
(451 - 433 - 343 flexible formation *with game pace/tempo control)
Posted by: Doctor_Scrumpy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/08/11 01:38 PM

A quick tip to all the Man U fans out there....

When making a pasta sauce remember all herbs are good, but ya can't beat basil !
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/08/11 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Doctor_Scrumpy
A quick tip to all the Man U fans out there....

When making a pasta sauce remember all herbs are good, but ya can't beat basil !


laugh One of your better jokes Doc laugh



"Possession is 4/11ths of the law: Of the 11 teams in Champions League group stage with highest possession percentages only 4 qualified".

https://twitter.com/#!/JustFootball
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/09/11 11:49 PM

El Clasico

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/12/09/el-clasico-tactical-preview-real-madrid-barcelona/

Jose Mourinho has almost exclusively used a 4-2-3-1 formation this season

Real have played a more attacking game this season, and there’s less certainty that they’ll defend deep, park the bus, and invite pressure.

Tactics are determined by what you want from the game, and this is an extremely important consideration, especially for Real.

Upfront, the choice is between Karim Benzema and Gonzalo Higuain. They’ve both started seven league games, but are very different players. As Sid Lowe outlines, “Benzema is far more technical, a better player in the absence of space, Higuaín applies greater pressure and is swifter on the break. The decision as to how Madrid play…will go a long way to deciding who Madrid play.”

But will either play? It’s entirely possible that Ronaldo could be used as the lone forward – that’s how he played when Real triumphed in the Copa del Rey final, and in the first leg of the Champions League semi (when Real lost, but the system worked well until Real went down to ten men). That would leave Angel Di Maria on the left up against Alves, and Ozil breaking from the right. If Real want to counter-attack, this might be a better solution than using Higuain.

The key question, in the entire game, is this: will Real press high up and be aggressive, or will they sit back and invite pressure? The likely answer is a combination of both – in El Pais, Diego Torres predicts that Real will close down Barcelona early on, especially at goal kicks and throw-ins, and then revert to sitting deep after half an hour.



In midfield, Alonso will sit deep and sweep up behind Diarra and Khedira, which will work well when Real win the ball – he should have time to spread the play to the flanks and prompt counter-attacks. Diarra should be tracking Iniesta, Khedira will close down Xavi and possibly look to pressure Busquets too.

With the ball, Real will break quickly from back to front, with combinations from the front three. Khedira will probably be given license to join them, and Marcelo will look to attack, especially if Barca field a narrow right-sided attacker – like against Milan, when they were vulnerable to attacks down that side.

Q- To what extent can Alonso help to dictate the tempo and rhythm of the game, and prompt quick counters? Will Barcelona look to close him down?

A 4-3-3 is not necessarily less attacking than the 4-2-3-1, but in Real’s case it is – it involves the removal of one of the front four and the insertion of another central midfielder, likely to be a physical, combative ball-winner.



Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/10/11 03:39 PM

Ok forget what I said. Copy Barcelona apparently they're pretty good. Just make sure you have Messi, Xavi, Cesc, and Iniesta on your team when you do.

The big boys of Real had their chances and choked tonight at home in attack. Their defending was poor overall against a great possession team that wants you you come at them far up the pitch, so they can just quickly play around you (far from your own goal). They then have their space to attack into and create quick combinations to penetrate through whoever is left on their way to your goal.

The easiest way to lose to a team that is better than you is to not realize that they are clearly better than you...

Real could have easily won that game 1-0. That would have been beautiful just like the game of chess is. There is no scoring of goals in the game of chess but one player many times does win in the end.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/10/11 06:42 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/lalig...analysis-121011

Sometime between now and last spring, José Mourinho decided it was not enough to win; rather, he wanted to win while accumulating style points, which is too bad.

Had José employed the same approach he accepted last spring, his team would have been perfectly situated to protect the 1-0 lead Victor Valdes delivered Real Madrid seconds into the match. The personnel he needed to offset Barcelona’s advantage in the middle would have been on the pitch, and he could have slowly lured Barcelona to exposing themselves to counter attacks, just as he’d done with Inter Milan.

Ultimately, the choice is simple. Mourinho can accept an approach that works, or he can play into pride.

They failed to score a goal of their own making, and for only the second time under Mourinho, they gave up three goals at home.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/10/11 06:57 PM

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/12/11/real-madrid-1-3-barcelona-tactics/


... Real’s pressing was, as expected, most obvious in the first 20-30 minutes of the match. They prevented Barca from constructing good moves from the back, although the Barcelona defence admirably remained committed to passing football throughout the match.

However, it was notable that Real’s attacking band of three had little impact when they won, even when given opportunities on the ball.

The surprise was with the use of Mesut Ozil, who most expected to be omitted in favour of an extra defensive midfielder.

Ozil created little and was removed early in the second half, Di Maria battled well but his end product was often poor.

By asking his attacking players to work extremely hard without the ball, maybe Mourinho drained them of the energy they needed when attacking.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/14/11 11:00 AM

http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/story...rom-past-080811

Naturally it wasn’t a big surprise then that there were great expectations surrounding Thomas Di Benedetto when the businessman from Boston agreed to buy Roma this summer.

As one columnist noted, there have been few stars and stripes since his arrival in the Eternal City, more a Homage to Catalonia with the appointment of Barcelona B coach Luis Enrique catching the locals, who were expecting Carlo Ancelotti, completely unawares.

“There is a lot of apprehension,” wrote Sergio Rizzo in an editorial for Il Corriere dello Sport. “Hopes and fears mix. There is great anxiety. The question marks are many, perhaps too many, but that’s what the club wanted. Roma have taken an innovative path with unpredictable choices, often giving the impression that they want to surprise everyone at all costs. The choice of Luis Enrique is a gamble not a bet.”

“The reason why we chose Enrique is symbolic,” explained Roma’s director of sport Walter Sabatini. “He represents discontinuity. Enrique represents an idea of football that we would like to follow, which imposes itself today through Spain and Barcelona, a kind of football, which is a little baroque but very effective. Enrique constitutes an absolute novelty, a courageous and provocative decision that I would make again.”

“When Roma got to know me, they got to know me as an offensive coach who likes to attack, who likes good football,” Enrique revealed. “The important thing is that the fans come to watch us, that they enjoy themselves. It’s a very attractive way of playing. We will play on the attack. I don’t consider football any other way. We are moving towards a complete change of ideas and identity.”

I haven’t come here to bring the Barcelona model, but something that is similar to it. The model that Barcelona have used has taken many years to realise. I am coming here to bring a model by association, which takes things from Barcelona, but isn’t equal to it, also because it all depends on the players that you have and from the qualities that they have.”

Those spectators in Riscone di Brunico with an intimate knowledge of Barcelona’s techniques will have recognised the piggy-in-the-middle-like rondo to develop pressing and the torrello passing patterns.

“It’s certainly a different methodology, a different approach to games with respect to the Italian championship,” noted Simone Perrotta. “In Italy we are used to being direct with a long ball straight from the defender to the attacker. Enrique is looking to be direct through a different method by going from one half of the pitch to the other as quickly as possible through possession and keeping the ball on the floor.”

Curious to observe Roma’s new methods, Arrigo Sacchi, the great iconoclast of Italian football, paid Enrique a visit. “I greeted him by saying: ‘Welcome to Hell’ because here it’s not easy to make inroads. We are afraid of new things when we really shouldn’t be.”

When placed in this context, Enrique, with his sunglasses and iPad, resembles Sacchi just as much as Guardiola. Milan gambled on him in 1987, believing that Italian clubs could lift major trophies without catenaccio and that if they were to go down in history, winning was not enough, they had to convince too.

“The system and the methods proposed by the mister are new, interesting and above all very stimulating,” Francesco Totti wrote on his blog.

“We are only at the beginning: day by day we’ll have the chance to enter into this new reality.”
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/14/11 11:33 AM

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/12/14/luis-enrique-roma-tactics-barcelona/

How effectively is Luis Enrique implementing the Barcelona methods at Roma?


This is quite a transformation. Immediately there were inevitable comparisons drawn with Barcelona. So, 14 games in and 10th out of 20 in the Serie A table, how effectively is he imposing the Barcelona methods? Here is a consideration of ten key Barcelona-esque factors.

Possession and ball-playing midfielders: 8-10
(Read more)

Penetration 3-10

Movement: 3-10

Pressing: 5-10

Defenders comfortable on the ball: 8-10

Attacking full-backs: 7-10

The Busquets role: 8-10

Wide forwards: 6-10

The Messi role: 6-10

Youth products: 8-10

Conclusion

The obvious cliche – Rome wasn’t built in a day. Enrique’s project is widespread and long-term, and though tenth in the league cannot be regarded as a success at this stage, the project is shaping up nicely.

“We should stop trying to make comparisons with Barcelona,” says General Manager Franco Baldini. “We’re trying to create a team that works with possession, but other sides do that too. We’ll refer to Barcelona when we have quality.”

Even when dissuading Barcelona comparisons, he still sees Barcelona as the target. There’s a long way to go, but it’s worth Roma and the fans getting behind Enrique.


...former Barcelona B coach Luis Enrique taking over at Roma.
...........................................................................................................................
*This is not a simple system to implement quickly, even the second team coach at Barca who trained with the Barca first team has had his problems training it to a top level team.

-Quick possession based ball movements and the resulting penetration opportunities that creates is the whole systems point and the primary method of the attacking system...?

Think of a game of basketball where the attacking team has the ball in your defensive zone at the top of the circle and has clean possession but can't get inside to take the high percentage shot! Is that really a more entertaining game to watch? Is it really a more attacking game?

Basketball is about a defensive system first
Hockey is about a defensive system first
Goals/points are scored when the defensive system fails...

Great attackers take advantage of defensive system failures, they are born (not trained) to do that... Barca has the perfect combinations of the best players for their defensive system and some of the games best attackers! That is their big secrete... Spending big money on the players that fit into their system the best!

Now go train that!

Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 12/14/11 11:52 AM

Let the other teams try to play like Barcelona then when they make a defending mistake:





Which type of attackers do we have in the US. Who have we developed so far?

I would prefer to win something big first with our national team, then talk about style of play in a decade or two when we're ready for that style...
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/17/12 07:10 PM

The most studied tactical puzzel of the last few years is Barcelona's style of play and why it works so well for them.

Controlling the tempo of play and using their energy wisely over 90 minutes and more importantly over the course of the long soccer season.

1. They employ the concept of high pressure defending with the forwards working hard when they lose possession. This gives the defenders time to get organized in their own half. They then want to out numbering the other team near the ball quickly to regain possession as far up field as possible. Many teams do not use more than two players to do this as the rest drop off. Many teams use this as a time to catch a short rest. Barca does not rest while defending, all 10 players defend and will drop back quickly as needed when they do not have possession.

If they regain possession in the attacking half they go to goal quickly. This is all very high energy work and the players must find time to rest. High energy work cannot happen for 90 minutes in every game if you want to win a lot of games over a long season. The slower tempo play for Barca is when they are in possession in the defending and middle thirds.

So, to control the tempo and get some lower work rate time (rest) the attack is very possession based and it most of the time it involves controlling the speed of moving the players back up the field once they regain possession. More times then not, over the course of a long season they play back and play safe into possession space first before starting to attack. They are all very good at reading the other teams shape and will counter if that play is on. Most of the time in the game of soccer the counter play is not on.

The ball goes back to the defenders, they knock it around for a bit while the attackers move forward in a medium energy mode. The ball is played to the midfield players who are skilled at holding the ball and making safe passes to not lose possession. That is the key they don't play ping pong back and forth for 90 minutes.

2. They take chances going forward but only when a play is on, they don't want to force a play too early. Messi's best play is the simple give and go to get behind starting from just outside the box.

If the play forward in not on they maintain possession in the middle third with precise passing skills in tight spaces. The midfield players do not spread all across the field. That wide space is taken up by the fullbacks but many times even when the fullbacks are open out wide they don't play to them as choice #1. The choices to maintain possession and less on the outside of the field near the line.

3. They have great passing skills but more important they have great support movements around the ball and always have more than one option to maintain possession safely when in the middle third.

They stay close in as a midfield group to provide great support to the player on the ball. Medium length passing is the safest type of pass and it creates the best possession percentages. Watch the spacing and amount of support movement they create by not attacking when the whole team is not prepared to move forward as a unit. (* they do use the counter when it is on)

4. The attack starts at the entrance to the box area when the scoring players are forward and ready to make runs into space.

As all this slower possession happens in the midfield the forwards are now forward, rested and near the entrance to the attacking third. Full of energy, they have the time to watch the defenders movements, and are ready to exploit the space that develops as defenders more in relation to the ball movement. They make runs into space and create combinations plays to penetrate through the central part of the field. Combinations play take time to set up and create and the players have the time to use changes of speed type of plays. The combinations plays work best from the area where it is the most difficult to defend, the center of the field. The same area where the best shooting angles come from.

They play like cats in attack and like dogs when they defend.


http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/lalig...fe-after-021612

Xavi Hernández has been at the heart of it all. The playmaker's control of the tempo of games - his management of the shape of his side – serves as the stable platform which allows Lionel Messi to wreak havoc up front...


Cesc Fabregas
“Further forward you have more freedom of movement, you feel freer and can play quicker,” he said. “I always want to get forward, as I was used to at Arsenal, where the football is more 'nervous'. Playing as an interior, by contrast, means you have to be more disciplined, to keep your position, and sometimes I lack the patience of Busquets and Xavi. It is not easy. You have to learn the movements within the ‘software’ that the coach has created"...



Guardiola said his side were allowing a “random factor” into games which in other seasons they had controlled.

“We have a problem,” the Catalan coach said. “We have dominated games for a lot of years. In the past the random factor did not figure into our play. We did not give it any room. We must return to that level and not let randomness feature in our games. We have to control it by playing better.”
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/19/12 03:21 PM

The team is amazing, today they played a high paced go forward game vs Valencia and won 5-1. Many attacks went to the outside and up using Alexis Sanchez and Perdo.

Messi got 4 goals off counters...


http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/firs...-out-of-nothing

Guardiola was asked about the dangers posed on Valencia's left wing by the pairing of Mathieu and Jordi Alba and admitted: "They attacked well there". However, he stressed that Valencia are not a one trick team: "It's true that they create a lot of chances down that wing but we'll try and do what we always do. We'll play our possession game".

??
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/21/12 06:20 PM

Well there goes the neighborhood... grin

http://coachingadvancedplayers.com/products/fc-barcelona/

http://www.worldclasscoaching.com/blog/?p=1863


Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/24/12 11:01 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/feb/23/champions-league-five-things

What has happened to the art of defending?

It is churlish to be too critical, not when the public are treated to boisterous entertainment of the kind served up in Stadio San Paolo or St Jakob-Park, but the round of 16 has served up some spectacularly slapdash defending. If they are forced to review their games in advance of the second legs, certain players whose job it is to prevent goals may just feel like leaving the video room. In no particular order (OK, maybe one deserves to lead the pack) Arsenal, Zenit, Benfica, Napoli, Chelsea, Basel and Bayern Munich did not cover themselves with defensive glory. Even Internazionale betrayed their massed experience by switching off for a set play in stoppage time to concede an advantage to Marseille, while Real Madrid were criticised for sloppy marking in allowing CSKA Moscow to grab a late equaliser.

At half-time in the compelling attack-fest between Basel and Bayern, mystifyingly locked at 0-0 despite the flurry of chances at both ends, Ray Wilkins sniggered that we would not be seeing either of these teams in the final because of their defending. Perhaps we won't. But if we are relying on a defensive masterclass for pointers of who may end up with the trophy, we are still none the wiser.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/24/12 11:10 AM

Is Barcelona bad at defending, or do we just value and like talking about their attacking more?

Has the style of defending changed from drop off and organize defending by taking away space as a unit of players staying compact in a smaller part of the field, or are we just watching some teams and the real limitations of their attempt at high pressure defending with out a complete game plan behind it?

What role does controlling the tempo of play have in high pressure defending, and in which phase of play would you then do that?
Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/27/12 06:46 PM

So I am making phone calls for my son's U8 spring indoor team tonight. I get the first person on the phone and he starts quizzing me on my "soccer background." After about 5 minutes, he says, "So are you going to play a 4-4-2 this season?" I was really annoyed, but in my calm voice said, "No, I think we will be playing 4-3-3, but I am going to expect a lot out of my midfield and you son better be the next Messi or it will be a long season."
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/28/12 10:02 PM

"There is not enough scoring in the game of soccer!"
vs
"Defending well is what makes the game of soccer so great"!

It's why most americans who have never played the game at a high level will never fully understand the game we watch and why we try to understand the tactics of that one game.

-Super Bowl XLVI (2012) ended with a score of...
3.0 - 2.4

-A game of chess always ends 1-0...

Sloppy but quick and "full of action" has never been revered by anybody in the long run.
...........................................................................................................................

Zonal Marking by Michael Cox
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/02/28/l...lubs/#more-8292

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/feb/27/defending-tottenham-hotspur-arsenal

The top Premier League sides are losing their discipline and ability to compete in Europe, as demonstrated by this season's high-scoring matches

In Spain, barely any sides attempt to dominate possession against Real Madrid or Barcelona, and even Real know their place against Pep Guardiola's side. In Italy the game is played at a much slower tempo, and in Germany games between the bigger sides are generally tense, tactical and with counterattacking a key factor.

...despite Arsenal eventually winning the game comfortably, their early problems surely could have been avoided with a little more caution.

Arsenal didn't have a spare man in defence – but still pushed both full-backs high up the pitch, and left two against two at the back. They constantly looked uneasy when they lost the ball, when simply dropping Song or one of the full-backs deeper would have provided some cover.

Control, an intangible quality that is impossible to measure, is the hallmark of every great side.

... the best sides look comfortable when in the lead, rarely threatened and able to conserve energy ahead of their next fixture.

It is this lack of control that is costing English teams in Europe. With a fluid Barcelona side the template for continental success, it's an inconvenient truth that English clubs perform better in Europe when they are defensive, organised and functional.

Those used to a more patient approach are better equipped. Milan are not four goals better than Arsenal in terms of raw quality, but they had a clearer gameplan and knew how to attack Arsenal. Similarly, Chelsea's willingness to leave spaces for Napoli to counterattack into was bizarre. These matches sum up the lack of adaptability, the lack of control.





= English clubs were doing better in Europe when the rate of goals in the league was very low.


"We want to play attacking soccer for our fans."
vs
"We want to win games for our fans and also create a history for our club."
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 02/28/12 10:20 PM

Switzerland vs Argentina on February 29th should be a great game to watch tactics in use.


Tell me...
Who does Argentina think they are?

Who does Switzerland think they are?

Who is more realistic?

And which playing style shows that?



*In their first game in group H, Switzerland achieved a 1–0 win against Spain in South Africa... This is what it is all about. Knowing who you are and what tactics your team can use to win one game against any team in the world on just one day.



Messi... shocked
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/01/12 06:38 AM

http://www.usldiscussions.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/278385#Post278385
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/20/12 01:08 AM

Now he is one of the guys that has his system fully thought out and is training his team to play the complete system of high pressure defending. And his guys are getting the results with this system.


US U23 team
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/24/12 10:49 PM

USA V Canada Olympic Qualifying game 3-24-12
433 v 451

When coaches lose they should just say, Yep, we lost we can do better.

But no, they all want to try to explain it...
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/20...nadian-strategy

"They set up in Christmas tree, a 4-3-2-1, and it's not a shape they've used," Porter said in the postgame press conference. "That's a shape you use to really stop a team. They did that to shut down. Essentially, we were three vs. five in the middle.

Score = 0-2
I guess it worked then, too bad you don't get style points in football.




-I thought you said this whole 433 attacking stuff was a sure thing?






Tactic = 5v3 in the middle against a "433 possession attacking team"
So that surprised you ahe?

* I tried to be positive about the 433 in the post above... It did not take long to go back to being cynical about it.

0-2
THAT WAS ONLY CANADA, AND WE WERE NOT PLAYING HOCKEY!
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/26/12 10:08 PM

3/26/2012
USA vs EL Salvador 3-3
Olympic Qualifying game

That was one of the poorest displays of defending a lead with only ten minutes left in a big game I have ever seen.

A US Soccer "C" coaching couse topic: Possession with a purpose!

Nuff said about that!

This U23 2012 Olympic qualifying will kill the "Why would we not copy the best team in the world" idea.

This thread is now finished. Another mission has been completed. whistle
..........................................................................................................................

US Soccer Best Practice (.pdf)
http://www.ussoccer.com/Coaches/Resources.aspx

Coaching soccer can be confusing at times... U.S. Soccer feels it is helpful to keep the following ideas at the forefront of your mind:

1. Set up situations where the players can learn by playing the game. The game is the best teacher.

2. Coaches can often be more helpful to a player’s development by organizing less, saying less and allowing the players to do more.

3. Teaching and learning the game of soccer is a process.

4. Set appropriate goals i.e., know what the player is able to do.
As a coach, work with these strengths, not against them.

*The objective of the Men’s National Team is to achieve results in international competition. For this reason, there is a close relationship between the Men’s National Team and the U-23 team, and at times, the U-20 team.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/26/12 10:30 PM

-I'm thinking about taking a trip to Australia... Maybe around... July 25 through August 11, do you want to come?

-Can we leave sooner than that?



Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/27/12 09:53 PM

OMG! You have to be kidding?

http://www.ussoccer.com/News/U-23-MNT/2012/03/US-Faces-Elimination-after-Late-Equalizer.aspx

"The U.S. defended well as the final whistle approach, with Johnson making a series of impressive saves and the backline doing everything possible to clear its lines at each opportunity".

"Even so it looked like the U.S. would hold on for the win until the final moment of the game, when El Salvador’s Alas curled a left-footed shot from 20 yards".
.............................................................................................................................

That was the worst example of defending a lead I have ever seen. It was not even close to good defending.

We just simply did not display good defending tactics.

-We did not get numbers behind the ball in our own defending 1/3.
-We did not take away space for them to play into near our own goal.
-We were in very poor shape the whole last 10 minutes, you could not see any type of organized lines of defenders.
-We did control where the ball was able to be played.
-We lacked cover, but still pressured the ball chasing the ball as individual defending players.
-We did not get faced up the field before attempting to pressure the ball.
-We were not compact as a full unit of 8-9 players.
-We did not move with the ball as a unit of 8-9 players.
-We had no redundancy built in to the defending system in case something went wrong.
-Our desperate clearing long ball play gave them hope, that hope created their energy to pressure us strongly in the final minutes.


+We did win the ball back many times, -but only because we lost the ball even more times in the last 10 minutes.


-We did not play away from pressure when we regained possession.
-We attempted way too many long ball counter attack passes. The longer the pass the less likely to maintain possession. It's a well know fact!
-We continued to give them the ball back, we created their chances, we gave them repeated attempts to attack us in our half.
-We did not keep possession of the ball for more than three passes in the last 10 minutes.
-We showed complete panic by clearing the ball in a desperate attempt to get out of the pressure, repeatedly.
-We did not have enough energy left in the final 10 minutes to give the ball good supporting options to maintain possession.
-We made risky passes in the middle third forcing the ball forward, without even looking for a safer pass to maintain possession.


*It was 10 minutes of 1v1 duels at a very high pace played back and forth on the field, exactly what you don't want when up by one at the end of the game.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1679/us-n...ed-like-a-loser
"You can't measure success always on results," Porter said. "You sometimes have to prioritize winning less to play a certain way."

We did not at all... look like Barcelona...?
We did not control the game, we did not control the pace of play, we did not control the possession of the game, not at all!

-It looked more liked a high school game, and it also emotionally ended like one. crazy

Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/27/12 10:18 PM



Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 03/27/12 11:18 PM

It should have been more like this.


Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 04/06/12 11:17 AM

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/20...ule=from_footer

The tactical mess that the US made on the field, something I alluded to in this space a month ago, is why.
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/02/17/armchair-analyst-4-3-3-and-new-american-orthodoxy

Put simply: The 4-3-3 was the wrong choice for this group of talent.

Look, I understand that we all want the US to look like Spain as soon as humanly possible. I certainly do.

But this current Spanish generation is pretty much the product of 40 years of Barcelona's famed La Masia academy. You don’t replicate that in one Olympic cycle, not without cutting some corners and driving some square pegs into round holes.


...spent so much time chasing is because of how spread out the US were. That’s what this version of the 4-3-3 is designed to do – get the game wide open...

The US didn’t dominate physically...

So the Salvadorans were able to stay compact on defense, then charge into gaps that quite literally showed up all over the field whenever the US turned the ball over. Which was often.

The Canadians, meanwhile, played a 4-3-2-1, stifled any US creativity in midfield...

The US, in that alignment, are easy to play against. You have room to pass. You have room to receive. You have room, as Alas did, to dribble, unmolested, 40 yards across the midfield and choose your shot.

When has that ever been said of a US side? Have the US, even when outclassed, ever made the game easy for the opposition in a game that counted?


The final big sin of the 4-3-3 is that it got away from what this particular age group has: big, strong forwards and tons of guys who can cross.


What it comes down to is that this group wasn’t designed to play the way Porter asked them to. And then when he had a chance to adjust, he didn't.

And that’s the real lesson this autopsy gives us: Wishing you can play a certain way is not the same as actually going out and doing it.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 04/06/12 11:25 AM

Defend to win.
(*until we actually are better at our passing accuracy, support movements, and control of the game tempo... while under pressure).

Q- What is the difference between ability vs skill in football?

A- Performance while under pressure.
Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 04/18/12 02:25 PM

Watching the Chelsea/Barcelona Champions League match this afternoon. This is by far one of the best soccer matches I have seen in a long time.

Chelsea is lacking in ball possession, but hey, why attack when you go up by a goal just before half. From a coaching perspective, I think that Terry, Cahill and the rest of the Chelsea backline is doing everything right. They are being patient, letting Barcelona make the mistakes (Messi's turnover at midfield) and staying compact.

Chelsea has also gotten more patient throughout the match. In the first-half, it looked like they had their line of confrontation at midfield. However as the second half has gone on, that lines seems to be about 10 yards into their half of the field.

I am disappointed at the play in Drogba. The guy is diving all over the pitch like an Italian. What a dork!

Barcelona is doing a good job when attacking. They are being patient in working with the field they have and as usual they do a great job getting numbers up when they make their runs. However, the field conditions seem to be playing havoc with their ability to finish. For those of you who did not watch, they have had some serious blunders with the ball inside the 18 yard line. Messi has also had a terrible corner or two and his free kicks have been off.

Regardless of how this one finishes, I am not going to miss the second match of the series. Barcelona will be at home and will hopefully do a better job breaking down the Chelsea back line.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 07/17/12 09:07 AM

Many people refuse to use the term 451, they also refuse to see it as a flexible system...

We see it explained as:
4141
4231
4321
433
343


The main problem is that many people just can't see that a big part of the system (the three central mids) is not played as a group of lines... and the outside players (outside mids and fulbacks) are the ones that exchange positions within the traditional three lines. It uses the concept of strong side (ball side) and weak side (without the ball) and has player position rules based on the player's distance away from the ball at the time of transition.

The central triangle players can change position with in the triangle to give the harder working players a chance to rest (staying back as the holding mid player). The whole system is based on solid possession play, if the team gives up the ball in the middle third with poor passing often then the system (one that needs time to change shape into attack) will fall apart and look sloppy. It only needs one or two players to pressure the ball to delay the other team's attack. It is a system that uses the all the principals of play the best and the most efficiently.


http://www.coachingadvancedplayers.com/how-xavi-changes-spains-formation-from-a-4-3-3-to-a-4-2-3-1/

The most current systems of today have three different formations based on which third the ball is in.

The numbers move forward and backwards to keep a number up situation all over the field as the ball moves into a new area.


451 in the defending third:
The shape is not a 4411, 4231, or a 433. It is a 451 with a central tringle, not three/four lines. The midfield is a group of 5 players working around the rules of a central triangle, three central mids with defined roles based on their distance from the ball at the time of transition. Two wingers that defend from a starting position behind the ball when in the def 1/3 and then attackers when forward of the def 1/3. Maintaining the central triangle shape is the key to a well played 451. When in the defending third the triangle has a base of two players back and one out at the point that stays out front of the base to prevent the switching of the ball across the field quickly. Your goal is to turn the ball back and away from the spaces closer to entering your defending third. You want to make the attacking team play back to its defenders before coming forward again. That gives your players the time to change shape at a 90 minute defending pace. The two central mids that create the base are the two furthest away from the ball during the transition to defending. It is not two defined players in a 4231... The shape has one counter attacking player (the lone forward) pushed up high to create space between the lines and one trailer (attacking mid) to support that quick counter and to use the space in the middle between the lines to build up the attack through the middle.

.....x....x....x....x
.....x....x....x....x
.............x

.............x

343 in the middle/attacking third:
Each group moves one player forward when in solid possession of the ball.
The week side fulback moves up into the space ahead as the week side mid becomes a forward away from the ball side, this creates an unbalancing effect and is intended to spread out the defenders. The central mid at the point of the triangle, or the sole forward moves with the ball as the width is used to escape the pressure of the ball coming out of the defending third. That player (which ever one is closer to the ball at transition to attack) creates better support near the ball to move forward quickly. This 343 shape creates more short shaped width moving through the middle third. It keeps the other team's defenders planted wider and more forward than they would like to defend the ball from entering the attacking 1/3. The space to play in behind the back line is maintained for the counter attack player with speed.

.....x.....x......x
...x ....x....x....x
......x ...x ...x

In attack the shape could even become a 334 if you have great possession skills (passing and support training), and well developed execution of combine to penetrate attacking plays.



*Chelsea played a 460/451 (450 after the red card) to beat Barcelone that was "parking the bus" in the defending third. The 451/343 one that changes to a 343 in attack is a great defending system, and also a great attacking system when used correctly.

442
433
343
352

451 flexible
460 bus parked
Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 07/17/12 04:12 PM

Great stuff JW7. I was beginning to think you fell off the face of the Earth.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 07/17/12 05:03 PM

Well I kinda did, I'm in North Carolina working hard to make my fiancée (Tampagirl7) happy. smile
Posted by: Soccer Boy

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 07/17/12 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By: jw7
Many people refuse to use the term 451, they also refuse to see it as a flexible system...

We see it explained as:
4141
4231
4321
433
343


The main problem is that many people just can't see that a big part of the system (the three central mids) is not played as a group of lines... and the outside players (outside mids and fulbacks) are the ones that exchange positions within the traditional three lines. It uses the concept of strong side (ball side) and weak side (without the ball) and has player position rules based on the player's distance away from the ball at the time of transition.

The central triangle players can change position with in the triangle to give the harder working players a chance to rest (staying back as the holding mid player). The whole system is based on solid possession play, if the team gives up the ball in the middle third with poor passing often then the system (one that needs time to change shape into attack) will fall apart and look sloppy. It only needs one or two players to pressure the ball to delay the other team's attack. It is a system that uses the all the principals of play the best and the most efficiently.


http://www.coachingadvancedplayers.com/how-xavi-changes-spains-formation-from-a-4-3-3-to-a-4-2-3-1/

The most current systems of today have three different formations based on which third the ball is in.

The numbers move forward and backwards to keep a number up situation all over the field as the ball moves into a new area.


451 in the defending third:
The shape is not a 4411, 4231, or a 433. It is a 451 with a central tringle, not three/four lines. The midfield is a group of 5 players working around the rules of a central triangle, three central mids with defined roles based on their distance from the ball at the time of transition. Two wingers that defend from a starting position behind the ball when in the def 1/3 and then attackers when forward of the def 1/3. Maintaining the central triangle shape is the key to a well played 451. When in the defending third the triangle has a base of two players back and one out at the point that stays out front of the base to prevent the switching of the ball across the field quickly. Your goal is to turn the ball back and away from the spaces closer to entering your defending third. You want to make the attacking team play back to its defenders before coming forward again. That gives your players the time to change shape at a 90 minute defending pace. The two central mids that create the base are the two furthest away from the ball during the transition to defending. It is not two defined players in a 4231... The shape has one counter attacking player (the lone forward) pushed up high to create space between the lines and one trailer (attacking mid) to support that quick counter and to use the space in the middle between the lines to build up the attack through the middle.

.....x....x....x....x
.....x....x....x....x
.............x

.............x

343 in the middle/attacking third:
Each group moves one player forward when in solid possession of the ball.
The week side fulback moves up into the space ahead as the week side mid becomes a forward away from the ball side, this creates an unbalancing effect and is intended to spread out the defenders. The central mid at the point of the triangle, or the sole forward moves with the ball as the width is used to escape the pressure of the ball coming out of the defending third. That player (which ever one is closer to the ball at transition to attack) creates better support near the ball to move forward quickly. This 343 shape creates more short shaped width moving through the middle third. It keeps the other team's defenders planted wider and more forward than they would like to defend the ball from entering the attacking 1/3. The space to play in behind the back line is maintained for the counter attack player with speed.

.....x.....x......x
...x ....x....x....x
......x ...x ...x

In attack the shape could even become a 334 if you have great possession skills (passing and support training), and well developed execution of combine to penetrate attacking plays.



*Chelsea played a 460/451 (450 after the red card) to beat Barcelone that was "parking the bus" in the defending third. The 451/343 one that changes to a 343 in attack is a great defending system, and also a great attacking system when used correctly.

442
433
343
352

451 flexible
460 bus parked


JW7, this is great stuff and to me it goes to show how complicated (in a way) 433 is. The thing that make me really upset about American soccer is that we want everything to be nice and neat. You start pushing players forward and most coaches look like deer standing in the middle of the road looking into head lights.

I really have enjoyed watching the Stars this season. While they really play what could be classified as more of a 442, they do and excellent job pushing their outside backs forward and involving them in the attach. Both Justin Davis and Brian Kallman have been instrumental in setting up goals.

It is just too bad some youth coaches have no flippin' clue how to coach their back line and end up getting their panties in a bundle every time their backs want to push forward.

Keep posting the great stuff!
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 08/16/12 09:58 AM

USA 1 Mexico 0 first win at Azteca in Mexico City.

Solid defending with flexibility in the style and pace of the attack.


22,000,000 million Mexicans did not see the US try to copy Barcelona.
They did not see us play them in a 433 attacking formation...
They did not see us attempt to use high pressure to win the ball back in our own attacking 1/3...
They did not see an attacking game...


Yet history was made!


They did see a team that understood how to defend compactly using numbers where the ball was.
They did see a disciplined mentality of recovery to defending shape behind the ball quickly after losing possession.
They did see an attempt to attack using a slower build up style of possession (*could have been better).
They did see a team play to their own strengths.


They did see American soccer history being made right in front of their noses...


And that is what they will remember in the end. That the US won inside their own home without many of its best players.


Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome


Maybe that should be the correct new American style we developed all on our own. whistle
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 08/30/12 08:18 AM

Tactical paradise... Some great game management stuff here.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/08/30/m...h-others-style/

Last night’s Supercopa match – a 2-1 win to Real, meaning they won the tie on away goals – highlighted the huge difference in playing style between the two sides.

Real dominated the game in the opening period when the match was frantic and direct. Constant long balls in behind the Barcelona defence produced numerous chances and a red card for Adriano, and Real could have been 4-0 up before Barcelona had even started playing.

But Barcelona dominated the second half, even with ten men, as Real dropped off and let Barcelona dictate the tempo. Barcelona’s passing is quick, in terms of going from player to player, but the speed of their attacks from back to front is very slow and patient.


The two clubs haven’t chosen to indulge more in their own identity, but instead respond to the other’s strength.
Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 09/09/12 08:36 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/wr...l?sct=sc_t12_a0

Jonathan Wilson comments about Messi and how Alejandro Sabella, Messi's national team coach uses him with the other players on the Argentina National Team.

At Barcelona, though, he plays in a very specific way, as a false nine who drops deep off the front line to link the tiki-taka as players move from deep or wide positions into the space he has vacated. It is a devastating style of football when it works, but it is a hugely difficult style of football to introduce -- which is why, despite numerous attempts, no other side in the world, not even Spain, plays in that way. It takes players of great imagination, game intelligence and technical ability and, even if they are available, it takes time. Mutual understanding, the movement that seems instinctive, is developed over hours and hours on the training pitch. At international level there simply isn't time to produce that same cohesion...

This is his Argentina: he has turned a strength back into a strength. The vast array of forwards became a burden for his predecessors but he has the clear-sightedness to see those resources in terms of depth rather than breadth. Anybody can imagine an ideal Argentina in which half a dozen great creators weave wonderful tapestries of sublime attacking football; Sabella seems to be producing something much more real, something that works not just in theory but in practice.

Argentina 4 Brazil 3
Argentina 3 Germany 1
Argentina 4411

In both of those games -- games in which Argentina could not be guaranteed domination of possession, Higuain played as the main striker with Messi just behind him, backed up by two banks of four. It's solid, conservative and, seemingly, effective.
..........................................................................................................................

Now what is interesting is just how Argentina played against Paraguay, a much more defensively shaped team.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/match/82137/argentina-vs-paraguay/preview

Argentina 3 Paraguay 1
Argentina 433 (vs 451)
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/match/82137/argentina-vs-paraguay/report

Against Ecuador in June 2012
"I love the potential of the team with three forwards," Sabella said, "but I have to see our opponent."

Posted by: jw7

Re: Stop trying to copy Barcelona! - 11/29/12 10:32 AM

Damm! They are just too good. It's not even fun to watch anymore...

Why even make them play their games?
La Liga is over for the season in November.
They should get a pass through to the semi-finals of the Champions League because we all know they will not be stopped (even with two parked German/Italian buses in the defending third) until they get tired in late April.

The whole team has such great skills, the system works flawlessly when the starters are all healthy, and their work rate is incredible. Then, they have Messi up front to wiggle his way thru the bus lines and place the ball where it should go.

It all works so well for them it's not even fun!

Damm! Give Messi his fourth crown and make sure this one has 11 really big diamonds in it.