Surprised this hasn't received much in the way of buzz today in usldiscussions land. What's everyone's thoughts on USL starting an indoor league?

I do not understand why this is a good idea, which does not mean that it isn't. Someone who is in favor of this move should please explain the upside to me.

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2010/07/20/the-i-league-does-america-need-more-indoor-soccer/

Just because there is a round ball and a goal dose not mean it needs fans.
Indoor soccer is not football! It's just indoor training.

I think USL is spinning it this way based on what they said:
1 - USL is growing. Look at us! We're adding teams, we're adding front office personnel, we're adding offerings. We're getting so darn big that you won't even think about going with the NASL.
2 - Some teams can have indoor and outdoor components and keep the same players year round and further expose their brands.

As for 1: well, yeah, but I'm still not geeked about Antigua and how about an offering on the mainland that makes me think somebody has it on the ball? Somebody who DIDN'T run one of your premier franchises (almost) into the ground.

And as for 2: I've never really seen it done effectively since the days of the NASL, when some of its teams played limited indoor schedules. And look how that turned out.

Given the state of the indoor game in this country and how hard a sell it is, I just don't see adding this to the mix being a net positive. But I'll be interested to see how it turns out. The guy in Rochester sure seems enthused. I hope he has someone to play against.

This would be nothing more then USL's plan "C" for when everything else falls apart.

Indoor Leagues
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoor_soccer

North America 5

Canadian Major Indoor Soccer League (Canada)

Major Indoor Soccer League (2009) (United States and Mexico) (formed from former MISL and AISL teams, formerly known as National Indoor Soccer League)

Premier Arena Soccer League (United States semi-pro)

Professional Arena Soccer League (United States, Canada, and Mexico)

*I-League (USL Indoor) (Fall 2011)

Europe 2/4 maybe

Campeonato Nacional de Liga de Fútbol Indoor (Spain) [1][2]
Leisure Leagues
Masters Football (United Kingdom)
Prostar Leagues Scotland

Former 12

American Indoor Soccer League (United States)

Continental Indoor Soccer League (United States and Mexico)

Eastern Indoor Soccer League (United States)

Major Indoor Soccer League (United States and Mexico)

Major Indoor Soccer League (1978 - 1992)

National Professional Soccer League (originally called the American Indoor Soccer Association)

National Soccer League (never played a game; not to be confused with the NISL)

North American Soccer League (indoor and outdoor soccer league)

Super Soccer League 1978 (never play a game)

Southwest Indoor Soccer League (evolved into the outdoor USL)

World Indoor Soccer League (Originally the Premier Soccer Alliance)

Xtreme Soccer League (United States)

* Another example of USL's winning strategy to muck up soccer in America

This I can get behind as a theory. Is there an example of it working in practice?

No, it's just a selling point of their new package called, the bundle it all together to get more start up fees program...

USL
No focus = no real marketing/new customers for any of the teams.

I cannot think of one.

From 1979 to 1984 (with a break in 82-83), some NASL teams that played outdoor also played indoor in the NASL's answer to the original MISL (i.e. the hot new chick). There was no 82-83 NASL indoor season for some reason, and a few teams (San Diego, Chicago and somebody else, forget who) played in the MISL, then came back to the NASL.

It was fun and interesting, but I'm not sure how successful it was. It was probably more fun early, when they only played 12 and then 18 games, but the final year they played 32 and it was overkill (the MISL was also on its way to maxing out with 52 games or something).

More recently, the Montreal Impact bought the woebegone Columbus (nee Canton) Invaders and had indoor and outdoor teams from 1997 to 2000. I don't think it worked out very well for them.

And even more recently, after the Milwaukee Rampage folded, the Milwaukee Wave started an outdoor club in USL called Milwaukee Wave United, which played in 2003 and 2004 and I don't believe it worked out all that well, either.

So, no I don't know of a really successful model on which to base the theory. Fun as it might be for a fan.

I agree 100%. I quit playing soccer at places like Ralia (the turf is also terrible at Ralia, did I mention that) becuase boards and soccer is like...well, I don't think I post it here. I prefer the smell of fresh grass, the great outdoors and hot nuts coming from the beer garden.

I was around when the NASL outdoor league turned into the indoor game to save their little mistakes in rushing to develop the first american national soccer league NASL. Do you know how they sold it to us fans as they changed the product? The ticket was cheaper and they told us it was a better game because their was more scoring per game played (the biggest criticism of soccer at the time, not enough scoring in each game) and also, that every fan no matter which seat you bought was in the right place to see all the action because it was closer to all fans in the arena.

After a while we all realized it was like comparing american Nascar auto racing to the world's sport of Formula 1 racing. Yes, their was more passing and more "racing action", and yes you could see the whole track, but after a while you realized those things were not real racing action. The Nascar car was designed to not work in free air so no one could really get away to a big lead after the third lap even if their car and driver was superior. Nascar engineered the cars to not get away on their own. The short track sucked as far as challenging the crew and driver, and was not really all that interesting to watch with no real breaking, acceleration, or corning set up needed on the cars. Also, it was really not a car that was all that hard to drive when the car only turns in one direction and needs no breaking or shifting of gears by the driver. It was not anything like the car we drove to work, it was just a fictional racing series that was cheap and easy to put in front of the fans. There was no beauty in the racing, no technical engineering challenges, no track tactics, no race tactics, just all "action" right in front of your face, which became as interesting as watching paint dry after you knew what was really happening, and not happening during the "race".

Indoor soccer will never again be anything more than an off season way to keep players game fit. It was tried many times, and has failed just as many times. We have too many other choices for sports entertainment now especially in the world's game of football.

I would not be opposed to an abreviated Indoor Season based on these parameters:

1 - It would be futsal style (no basher boards).
2 - It would be played in small intimate venues (college basketball gym) where the seats would be close to the action.
3 - It would be an abbreviated season (14-16 games) with 2 round playoff (best of three.


Bernie - that team you were referring to might have been the Minnesota (Ft. Lauderdale) Strikers...just a guess. Can't forget Tino and his pet parrot.

No, the Strikers didn't go to the MISL during the non-NASL season of 82-83. It was San Diego, Chicago and Golden Bay. The Strikers DID join the MISL for the 84-85 season (along with the Sting, Sockers and Cosmos).

And you forgot to add this
4 - No one will go because "futsal style" isn't going to work.

I think that the USL just became an even bigger joke. This is freaking ridiculous.

I've just about had it with this stupid organization.

The NASL is a freaking joke, too.

It is difficult to argue with these assertions, but you shouldn't let it get to you. Focus on the teams you support. The FIGC is filled to the brim with pompous bozos - this does not stop me from fervently supporting Inter.

I just want NSC Minnesota to exist and play against other teams next year. I have given up on expecting the competing leagues to behave wisely.

Kickers had an indoor team in 2008-09, though it was in an amateur league. I'm thinking maybe they had about 5 guys or so from the outdoor season? They definitely filled the venue each game. Then again, I would say capacity was maybe 250 people. Definitely a small, intimate place.

It was fun, people seemed to really enjoy it and it didn't try to claim to be outdoors. It was what it was. They also didn't have it again the following year which probably says the most from at least an organizational level.

I hate to agree with "Bernie Slaven" on this one, but he is right. Fustal style/6 v. 6 is fun for washed up "has beens" or "never weres," but I wouldn't pay a thin dime to watch "pros" play it.

On a lighter note, I do have many fond memories of watching the MN Strikers practice over at Corner Kick in Maplewood when I was a kid. I also thought it was cool that the played Kenny Loggins version of "The Heat is on" every time they scored a goal. Ah, those were the days.

Resistance is futile.

I'm not thinking this too good of an idea. Nobody is going to pay to watch this league and quite frankly this game is quite a bit different. The only thing indoor soccer is really good for is a training tool, especially here in MN where you can't practice outdoors in the winter.

No, some people will pay to watch this league. Some people pay to watch all sorts of things. I'm just not sure enough people will do so to make a go of it economically.

And I find it hilarious that the same people who get riled up when football/basketball fans rag on outdoor soccer for being boring call indoor soccer "good for nothing but a training tool." Especially when it has been able to sell tickets for the last 32 years.

As for "nobody is going to pay to watch this," glass houses and all that.

When I said nobody, i meant not enough to support the league. And what other uses does a league like this really have? sure, it may be fun to play but it's not very popular and as of now that's what is best used for, a training tool.

Too many other better choices of real football to watch, even if that's only on TV during the winter months.

I will always support the highest level of outdoor soccer to watch in person, but the indoor game was maybe kinda exciting back in the 80s...?? Not so much anymore for me, the players playing on those teams are just not all that exciting, they are at the fifth-sixth best level of play. Playing a "wall" pass off a real wall and then taking a full leg swing shot from five feet in front of the keeper who is now just trying to protect himself from the shot that close, is not all that great of a thing to watch during the winter months.

In training we would call the walls effect in the indoor game with boards 6v6+150 it favors the attack too much, It's not real soccer.

As I said too many other choices...

Not when only about 25% of the indoor players actually play outdoors. They're not using it for training. They're using it to continue to make a living without having to sell insurance.

And there are people who are fans strictly of the indoor game (and vice versa).

Amen! During the winter you have all of Europe playing soccer (on TV), you also have the NFL, NBA and the NHL. I guess you can throw in professional lacrosse. Hmmm, you also need sometime just to hang out at home and relax with the family.

You would also have to consider the market and what facilities are avaliable. I guess in the Twin Cities you could play at either the Target Center (which is a dump) or the Xcel Energy Center (parking is terrible). I think they would have to play in Minneapolis given the schedule the Xcel currently has. Maybe MN Soccer Guy can expand his facility and field a team there?

Regardless of the venue, you are going to have to sell at least 5-8,000 tickets per game to stay afloat. I just do not see how the smaller markets are going to do it.

Yeah, soccer is fun, but I really do not see myself going to DT Minneapolis or St. Paul on a cold winter evening to watch indoor soccer. Now I understand why my mom and dad rarely took my all the way to Bloomington to watch the Strikers at the Met Center--now that place was a real dump!

And that's true only in the winter? Good thing there's no competition any other time of year.



So you've worked that out, then, have you?

Very few indoor teams even announce 5-8000 a game, much less sell that many. There actually IS no real break-even number that works for all franchises (and, yes, venue does matter because not all venues charge you the same rent or give you the same deal). There's total money in versus total money out.

While you can say - in very general terms - that a franchise (in any sport) that is drawing paltry numbers is probably not long for the world, I defy you to look at Franchise A in one market and Franchise B in another and tell me their respective break-even points. You can't do it.

About 5000 would fill the lower bowl at a stadium hosting an indoor soccer event--makes it look full. Close off the upper level and hopeful sell some "club" level seats. You get a good deal because artifical turf is easy to maintain. The reacurring issue is travel expenses. Berine, everything else is over your head. I guess someone like you does not operate well in an enclosed venue--kind of hard to fit your ego inside an enclosed arena.

Bernie, I respect your opinion to disagree here but since an abbreviated futsal season (or just a weekend tournament) has never been attempted at a professional level I would actually like to see the MLS do this. Try it out and see what happens.

Indoor soccer is dead in this country because the best players don't play there anymore (like they did when the NASL folded and the guys went indoors because they needed a paycheck). Futsal is not true soccer as we know but it's a lot more realistic than basher-board indoor soccer.

I would like to see it tried at least by the MLS since the fan bases are in place and the guys would not have to relocate. A small venue like a college basketball arena (8-12,000) I think would keep it intimate even if 4-8,000 showed up. It would be unrealistic to think that USL I-League would draw that especially when most don't draw that now.

I'll tell you what happens: no one will go. Those who go won't go again. Because futsal is incredibly tedious.



You are correct. It's almost exactly like outdoor. So why not watch outdoor? Where the ball actually can go higher than players' waists, where it's not like watching one-and-two-touch for an hour?



Never in one million freaking years will four to eight thousand people show up to watch professional futsal in this country, with MLS players or without MLS players.



But it's not unrealistic to think that futsal could draw that? Just because "it's never been tried?" Futsal qualifying tournaments have been held in this country before (in Milwaukee and Anaheim if memory serves) and nobody goes. This is not a sport you can show to someone on television and have them say "Oh, I have got to go see that."

You can market it all you want. You can say it's "more realistic." But you'll never get people to pay to go watch it. Never. It's not even a niche of a niche.

As for the I-League, well...it's indoor soccer and it's going to be a tough sell, like everything else. As long as they don't expect too much, they might not be too disappointed.

It's so much fun watching someone discover a new message board and then spend the next couple of months posting 15 times a day and becoming an "elder" with a crash course. Really, it is.

You want to have a go at me, counselor? Bring your frigging lunch. You're a moron.

"Boy."

As to the general point, jagoff, I meant "you've run the numbers and it's based on something besides just pulling them out of your butt, right?"

No, you haven't. You think you can just wave your hand and get 5,000 people at a game. You can't. You have no experience at this. You have no knowledge. You have nothing. I'm not going to tell you how to try a case, you don't tell me about the finances of soccer. Idiot.

Bernie, you have been quiet for the last couple days. Did you run out of medication again?

No, I was working for a living.

I'll make you a deal, Noob: I'll gladly forget the fact that you exist if you extend me the same courtesy. That will make two Minnesotans I won't have to worry about anymore.

PS - Way to dodge the question. And you rip on ME? Please, honestly...if you're not going to hang yourself, leave me out of it and I'll do the same for you.

No he won't he proved it today in the Palace Baltimore thread. He made it three week, must have been on vacation in Northern Ireland again.

I am confused by Bernie's post. I do not understand the "two Minnesotans" bit. I think he is assuming I am a Minnesotan.

And now we have word that the USL will be "operating" the MISL.. oy and vey