I'm hoping to have a real discussion on how we open up the U.S. soccer pyramid once and for all. I'll be happy to discuss with anyone who thinks that an open league, yes, with promotion and relegation, doesn't explode the popularity of every division of USL. If you prefer the current model, I'd also be interested your reasons. But please, no apathy or defeatism here. If enough of us want it, and join together, it will happen. If we ever want to host another world cup, it has to happen.

If you're rolling your eyes now at another promotion relegation post - please try and find a point of view that isn't shaded by a powerless acceptance that MLS investors will forever own the top division in North America, or don't respond here. Sorry folks, I want to see a vibrant USL 1 and 2 compete directly with an MLS that is so stilted and stagnated that their most exciting moments revolve around the arrival of new clubs. Unfortunately, the chance that we can replace MLS with USL 1 at the top of the pyramid is far, far less than the chance we can pry open the closed league system. While the current system worked out for the Canadian and Caribbean clubs in the Champs League, it permanently relegates U.S. clubs from that chance.

So come on, let's HAVE this discussion. Together we can make it happen, and I am convinced that the sport stands to experience unprecedented growth when we do.

Again, let me specify: this is not a discussion on whether you think it can happen - this is about whether you want it to happen, and how we get there from here.

If we can move from George W Bush to Barak Obama, we can move from a closed league franchise model to an open league model in U.S. club soccer!

not sure what you mean...will Obama pay all the player salaries with my tax money ?

Im a long standing believer in the promotion and relagation system in this country!!!!

it can be done but they first have to get some better ownership groups and they would need to have at least 6 to 8 bottom divisions with promotion to 6 to 4 mid divisions and then promotion to 4 to 2 west cent east divisions then to 2 to 1 west east divisions to the 1st division.

Just look at the way its been regionalized in england and other countrys.

Man, we have had this discussion SO many times. Until enough people care about WATCHING soccer in this country it doesn't matter. All promotion gets you is an increase in your expense line and little if any increase in your revenue. Therefore promotion = losing MORE money. The only thing that promotion satisfies is the EGO of your ownership group.

My team in England, after they beat Reading this weekend will be playing in the $50million game. (the promotion playoff from the Championship to the Premiership). When USL has one of those, then it makes sense. Its worth $50million in increases in ticket sales because you are playing Manchester Utd and Arsenal instead of Plymouth Argyle and Barnsley. People actually care about that. Montreal Impact, and the Rochester Rhinos will barely make a blip on your radar - but thats who you are relying on to generate your increased revenue.

As much as YOU (anyone who reads this message board) care, there simply isn't enough people to make it matter.

This is NOT England or any other country, this is the U.S.A.! You're here, accept what WE have!

yeah, because this country was built on people just accepting what they had :rolleyes:

For the record, I have no desire personally to see any type of pyramid system like is being discussed. And like Gareth basically said, I don't see it working here, at least how things stand now; nor do I see that changing any time soon. But if someone does believe in it and is willing to work at getting it accomplished I don't think they should be told that they need to accept anything. Like I said above, we would still be part of England and not even having this discussion if people had just accepted what they had

The problem is the Franchise system. If teams had to pay a Membership fee each season instead of feeling entitled to their franchise territory, there would be real competition between clubs. "Expansion" clubs must be forced to play at the bottom level and work its way up. Currently that would be D2 in the USL system as the PDL can't count due to age restrictions.

I do think pro/rel can work in the USA (North America) you just won't see teams fold as often, they will just drop down a level or 2. The USL kind of does this informally-like! They just need to grow a pair and tell teams, "I don't care how much money you have, you team sucks and it needs to be down a level!" That can't happen until the territory restrictions are dropped.

Promotion and relegation is not a viable option in the US (or Canada or Australia), not just because of the great distances that have to be travelled (I do realize that Russia is an example of a HUGE country where promotion/relagtion can work but there is a history there) because of the great distances that clubs have to travel.

Revenue makes leagues make changes. I respectfully challenge this statement. I am sure that you are aware that Siere A & B owners are currently going through a nasty divorce and it is very likely (unless a revenue sharing agreement can be struck that promotion relegation in Italy may quickly become a thing of the past. It might be doomed in England as well. For basically the same reason that it won't happen here in the US or in Canada: Revenue.
I'm going to ask you to explaim the above premise. At face value, it looks like there is no basis for it but I am sure that you must have read something from FIFA reps that I am not aware of).
Having read that, doesn't sound too conducive to an actual dialogue. Doesn't sound like you really want too much a discussion. What sort of "discussion" could really take placed groundrules that will not allow discussion revenue, investment, expenditures and capital.
Could you elaborate on this belief a bit, please? Why do you think that it will be a big boost for the sport in the US when it is so outside of sports cultural nature.
So let us clarify things, here on this side: First you state if you don't believe it is possible then please explain why. Then you state that it is about how to get there from here.
Again, limiting the dialogue.
I don't like to reference politics online so I won't touch that one. A very curious comparison or point of reference, in deed...

I agree with pretty much everything Yankiboy says.

I don’t think anyone could question that professional soccer in the U.S. is experiencing a fair amount of growth right now. Even in a down economy, there are people willing to invest money into starting new professional franchises. This is a good thing. Asking owners to buy into a system that would increase their risk of losing revenue through relegation, is not.

And besides, looking at historical standings for MLS, USL-1, and USL-2, I can’t really point to any one team that I can say with confidence shouldn’t be playing at its current level.

The only way I think you it could get to a promotion/relegation structure would be to tear down the whole existing professional soccer structure in the U.S. and start from scratch. A pretty drastic step to fix something that, in the minds of a lot of people (self included), isn’t broken.

Now, what is broken is the qualifying of U.S. clubs into the Champions League. It’s currently working under the assumption that MLS is the best league in the land. Which it probably is, but not by as much as USSF and ESPN would like to think. What I’d like to see is the four U.S. spots allocated to:

MLS Cup winner
MLS Cup runner-up
U.S. Open Cup winner
U.S. Open Cup runner-up

This would mean that the MLS clubs are guaranteed at least half of the U.S. allocations, but would also double the chances of a USL/USASA team of getting in (like Charleston would have last year).

England
Total 130,395 km2
50,346 sq mi

Total 9,826,630 km2
3,794,066 sq mi

The US is 75 times bigger than England I hope you noticed that before you started discussing this issue and this is the main reason why travel costs will kill any Pro/Rel dreams you currently have.

Its simple business logic, does income gained by distance traveled and players paid Equal a profit or within budget limits for a club.

Resounding NOPE in most cases, end of topic.